Talk:Bottle show
I'm sure there are more, but none come to mind. Jaz talk 21:26, 14 May 2006 (UTC) Some episodes are hard to define as "bottle shows", DS9's particularly. -- When it rains... it pours 23:37, 15 May 2006 (UTC) :Very true, DS9 bottle shows are hard to ID. I suppose "Civil Defense" could be one. -- Tough Little Ship 19:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC) ---- I just felt I should add http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/7804.html this link here, which listed a couple ENT bottleshows, and why their used. http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/7753.html - AJ Halliwell 04:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC) DS9 Bottles Starship Down would be a good example of a DS9 bottle. Igotbit :No, actually, it does not. It takes place entirely off DS9. Now, that could be forgiven, as it mostly takes place within the Defiant, but there are a number of other problems. It has a major, and possibly expensive, guest star, James Cromwell. The guy has been in movies (Star Trek: First Contact for example. In addition, a new starship model had to be made for this episode (I'm pretty sure this is the first time we see the Karemma starship), and it has LOTS of special effects shots of the battle in that atmosphere. Seems to break just about all the rules. --OuroborosCobra talk 14:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC) ::Yeah, the episode was actually supposed to have a lot more special effects, which in turn would have made it an even more expensive show. The original story outline had the Defiant crashing in a water planet rather than a gas planet. --From Andoria with Love 17:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC) :::According to the DS9 Companion, the producers considered (at a minimum) "Duet" and "The Wire" bottle shows, despite the fact that they both featured a regular guest (Garak) and in both cases another "major" guest star. They define the term as "a show deliberately written to require a minimum number of special effects, actors, and new sets", and both of these episodes seem to meet that definition fairly well. -- Sulfur 02:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC) :Sounds to me then that we have a new, more official definition of theterm. We should change the article description to say that. --OuroborosCobra talk 07:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC) ::DoneCapt Christopher Donovan 03:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC) TOS Bottle shows I am removing the following as they all had a significant number of guest stars: * "Journey to Babel" * "The Ultimate Computer" * "The Mark of Gideon" I am not sure about "The Changeling". It had a bunch of special effects, I think. Honestly, I have not seen it in years. --OuroborosCobra talk 01:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC) :I think that "Ultimate Computer" at least could be re-added to the list. They had ONE "big" guest part, one "lesser" part, and only a handful of extras (less then they usually had for sure). Also, 98% of the FX shots were reused "stock" shots.Capt Christopher Donovan 02:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC) Hadn't watched that one in a while either. I remember there being more guest stars. Re-adding. --OuroborosCobra talk 02:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC) ::See also the terminology used in the DS9 companion (noted above). By that definition, Ultimate Computer would definitely fit. Heck, the DS9 people considered "Civil Defense" a bottle show. -- Sulfur 02:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC) :Heck, I'd consider readding "Mark of Gideon" too. It only had two real speaking parts outside the main cast (the girl and her father) and ONE scene that had any sizable amount of extras (the 'faces' scene).Capt Christopher Donovan 03:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC) ::There is also Krodak and Fitzgerald. That brings it up to 4 speaking parts, plus all of those extras. For TOS, that is actually quite a few guests. --OuroborosCobra talk 03:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC) :I'll admit it's been awhile since I've seen the ep, but did Krodak actually speak? So that's one major speaking part (the girl) and three minor parts (the father, Krodak, and Fitzgerald) and ONE scene where we have a body of extras (faces). Contrast that with the number of scenes they had where ordinarily they WOULD have a lot of extras but didn't. :I make this case not to argue for it's own sake but because I feel it's a legit issue that needs settling. What constitutes "few" or "fewer than normal"? What about shows like "Mirror Mirror"? No new sets, only two extra speaking parts, minimal FX BUT it recostumed several characters. Where do the trade off's add up or not?Capt Christopher Donovan 03:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC) ::Since I'm the one who put the TOS examples up, allow me to argue my position, specifically regarding Gideon. I can see taking Babel off the list. I was kind of 50/50 on that one, but I have seen reviewers on other Trek sites label it as a bottle show. Depends on how loose one is with the definition I suppose. Now we do have at least one TOS episode that we know for sure is a bottle show, and that's "The Naked Time" (John D.F. Black even admitted in an interview that it was created as a bottle, and since he wrote it himself, who are we to argue?). So if we take that episode as a reasonable standard for judging what makes a TOS bottle, I think Gideon more than passes the test. First, all of Gideon's sets are existing or redressed Enterprise sets, there's nothing new there at all. Second, there are very, very few special effects (less than in Naked Time even, and about as little as we've ever seen in any episode of any Star Trek series). And both episodes had the same number of guest actors with dialogue: two significant roles (Riley/Tormolen, Odona/Hodin), a minor role that appears in only one scene (the crewman blocking Rand in the corridor, the Admiral), and a one-line role (the laughing crewman, Krodak).--69.250.13.128 07:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC) :::Thing is, I think the guests in "Naked Time" on the whole also were guests as the same characters later on, while those in Gideon were brought in just for that episode. That may not seem like much, but it makes a difference. It is kind of like Garek in the DS9 ones, yes he is a guest star, but for a recuring character. That is not the case in Gideon, but I think it is in Naked Time. All of that said, I hate this article, because it is almost all judgement calls, and whenever that is the case, we are going to get into conflict whenever anyone makes a change, as no one is going to agree. --OuroborosCobra talk 07:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC) ::::Riley is the only new character in Naked Time who came back, and only for Conscience of the King (and even then it was supposed to be a different character until they cast Bruce Hyde for the part). So I'd hardly put him on a level with Garak, who appeared in over 30 episodes. More like Lt. Palmer (Uhura's fill-in for two episodes), or at most Harry Mudd. The actor who played Tormolen did make a second appearance in a totally different role, but so did the actor who played Krodak. ::::And incidentally, 4 guests with speaking parts is not unusual for TOS at all. Unless they blew the whole budget on special effects (e.g. The Immunity Syndrome), they almost always have at least that many. Sometimes as many as 9 or 10 in the case of episodes like "Tribbles," "Wolf in the Fold," and "Patterns of Force." It's when you don't see more than a couple of significant new characters, there are no space amoebas or other budget-busting effects, and the whole thing is taking place on the ship or other easily reconstructed sets that you know for sure you've got yourself a bottle, and Gideon just screams "bottle" to me (in fact it'll be on 2.0 on G4 tonight, so you can re-watch and judge for yourself). Actually, I would make a case for "The Enemy Within" being a bottle too - it's all on the ship or that one small patch of generic planet, there are no big effects or new models or sets, and only one character was used in the whole episode who never appeared again (Fisher, and even then his actor was a retread from The Cage).--69.250.13.128 16:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC) :I'm beginning to agree with you...too many judgement calls and no clear guidance...Capt Christopher Donovan 10:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC) Massive cleanup Well, a massive cleanup of this article is in order. A lot of things that shouldn't be here have been added, and some things that belonged here have been removed. I will do my best to make sense of the fixes I am making. --OuroborosCobra talk 14:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC) TOS *"The Doomsday Machine" This is just about as NOT a bottle show as TOS gets. Not only does it involve a MAJOR star who would not have been cheap (William Windom), but it has a huge number of effects shots. Not a bottle show. *"Charlie X" Mixed on this one. Lots of guest stars, but I'm not sure how major they are, and I don't remember that many effects. I will leave it for now. **Lots of extras. Only two significant guest stars: Robert Walker Jr. as Charlie, and Abraham Sofaer in his brief cameo as the Thasian. Other than the Thasian's appearance and people disappearing, there aren't that many effects shots. I'd call it a bottle, but I can see where others might disagree.--Zequist 03:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC) *"The Naked Time" Per above discussion, the writer of the episode called it a bottle show, therefore it gets put back on the list. *"The Ultimate Computer" Keeping per above discussion. *"The Changeling" Grudgingly keeping per above conversation. *"Journey to Babel" Taking off the list. Not only did this have a lot of guest stars (remember all those ambassadors?), but a lot of new makeup and costumes. In addition, there are some special effects shots. *"The Immunity Syndrome" Off the list. Lots of effects shots. You remember, the HUGE AMOEBA! **Agree. The Star Trek Compendium mentioned that this episode had no guest stars because the Amoeba ate up the entire budget.--Zequist 03:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC) *"Elaan of Troyius" Leaving this one for now, but I am leaning against it. Lots of guest stars, new costumes, and I seem to remember some new sets, but it has been a long time since I saw this episode. There was ONE new set built, the large Rec Room. That scene was cut from the final episode, and the rec room was seen in only two subsequent episodes (it was meant to be a permanent set, though.) Costuming has little to do as to whether a show should be considered a bottle show. ** I'd lean against this one. Besides having two very accomplished guest stars (France Nuyen and Jay Robinson), you also had the space battle with the Klingons, and the first physical appearance of the Klingon D7, meaning they had to build a brand new ship model for the episode, and then film all the blue-screen footage, matte shots, and other special effects involving the new model. That usually ain't cheap.--Zequist 03:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC) Removing. --OuroborosCobra talk 03:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC) *"The Tholian Web" Removing. Lots of effects shots. *"Is There in Truth No Beauty?" Leaving for now, but this is another I have not seen in awhile. *"Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" I'm mixed on this one. Two main guest stars, and they both featured prominently, and possibly some set work for the planet scenes. I'm removing it. :Planet scenes? There were NO planet scenes in that episode (unless you count the stock footage of fires and pillage superimposed during the chase through the ship.) IMHO, it belongs as a bottle show. Meh. Readding. --OuroborosCobra talk 03:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC) Masks Masks removed. The episode was one big new set and special effects shot. no guest stars true, but with every set needing major modification, and the temple, and all the props, and Data's makeup... this hardly qualifies. --''6/6'' ''Neural Transceiver'' 14:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC) ENT Bottles Unless I'm missing something, why would "Dead stop" be considered a bottle show? It may not feature any guest stars (aside from director Roxann Dawson as the computer voice), but it certainly has a lot of new sets and special effects for the automated repair station and the repairs to the Enterprise. -- Defstar 14:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC) TNG Bottles What about "The Loss"? The effects in it didn't seem any more "complicated" than those in Time Squared. Mind you, I could be forgetting something here. 62.47.133.140 01:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC) And "Clues", for that matter. 62.47.146.106 00:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC) Voy Botles Eh, should The Gift be in this? There were quite a few explosions going on in that one, force fields, fights. Not the mention the special effects with Kes, her powers, and the shuttle at the end. And an incredible amount of make up work with the introduction of Seven in her regular human form. Not quite a Bottle episode according to the definition of it. I vote to have it removed. And now that I think about it, I don't think any of these Voyager episodes are actual Bottle Episodes, they all had mayor special effects in it. -- Marjolijn 23:37, 22 November 2007 (CET) Production costs Can production costs (taking into account inflation et cetera, of course) be compared, to work out which episodes are towards the bottle show end of the spectrum? AyalaofBorg 03:59, 9 December 2007 (UTC)